why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

If it's broken or just needs tweaked

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GeorgeSweety
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby GeorgeSweety » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:57 am

juntjoo wrote:great news, my timing is OFF! that could mean an easy fix, *fingers crossed*

but what special tool do I need or special trick is there to get those Philips head screws off the timing plate? And how do you even get sideways leverage on it? I wish there were a wall next to this side of the bike. I tried wd40 and hit the heads of them with a hammer behind a small punch. There's gotta be an easier way. I think these screws are the last straw for me tonight. You beat me bike. but I'll see your ass in the morning!


jj, I don't think it is possible for coils to half fail so that one plug won't spark, you can get a coil that starts to fail but both plugs should spark the same. Even if it were possible for a coil to half fail, the chances of it happening to both coils at the same time would be impossible.
With regards to your timing, it may be out but the bike should still run, I had the same problem yesterday with mine. Like a fool, I trusted the scratch marks that the PO had put on the timing plate, so when I cleaned my spark advancer I replaced the timing plate in the same position as it came off. When I took my bike to the local MOT test station it was running on all four but felt under powered, a typical sign of incorrect timing. I went and bought a strobe light and connected it up, my timing plate was roughly 4mm in the wrong place but the bike started easily with the timing off by so much. The three screws holding the plate undid easily with a screwdriver, they weren't a problem at all but your PO may have used thread locker on them. Will an impact driver work on them?

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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:17 am

GeorgeSweety wrote:
juntjoo wrote:great news, my timing is OFF! that could mean an easy fix, *fingers crossed*

but what special tool do I need or special trick is there to get those Philips head screws off the timing plate? And how do you even get sideways leverage on it? I wish there were a wall next to this side of the bike. I tried wd40 and hit the heads of them with a hammer behind a small punch. There's gotta be an easier way. I think these screws are the last straw for me tonight. You beat me bike. but I'll see your ass in the morning!


jj, I don't think it is possible for coils to half fail so that one plug won't spark, you can get a coil that starts to fail but both plugs should spark the same. Even if it were possible for a coil to half fail, the chances of it happening to both coils at the same time would be impossible.
With regards to your timing, it may be out but the bike should still run, I had the same problem yesterday with mine. Like a fool, I trusted the scratch marks that the PO had put on the timing plate, so when I cleaned my spark advancer I replaced the timing plate in the same position as it came off. When I took my bike to the local MOT test station it was running on all four but felt under powered, a typical sign of incorrect timing. I went and bought a strobe light and connected it up, my timing plate was roughly 4mm in the wrong place but the bike started easily with the timing off by so much. The three screws holding the plate undid easily with a screwdriver, they weren't a problem at all but your PO may have used thread locker on them. Will an impact driver work on them?


in my last post I show how I got em off. Okay, so you shouldn't necessarily go by the marks? Because I feel like even tho I lined up the marks better, it doesn't necessarily run better. Before although the marks didn't line up the screws sat right in the middle of their limits.

Well, besides getting that right I don't feel it bad any effect on the misfiring of 1&3. Wet plugs, misfiring, higher compression on them. Something wrong with exhaust valves? And I'm just not seeing the likely hood of it being electrical as no matter what I do 2&4 hot, 1&3 cool to warm.
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Folsoml
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby Folsoml » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:03 am

Two things can cause bad compression--rings and valves. If it is rings, adding oil temporarily seals the leaks and raised compression. If it a leaking valve, the oil does nothing. That being said, your compression numbers are not so bad as to cause a cylinder not to fire--nor are your compression numbers too high to cause anything. I would not worry about compression right now.

I've never heard of a coil that would fire one plug, but not the other.

What has lead you to believe your timing is off? The timing would have to be REALLY bad to make cylinders not fire at all. Usually it just makes them run rough.

juntjoo wrote: And I'm just not seeing the likely hood of it being electrical as no matter what I do 2&4 hot, 1&3 cool to warm.


Have you gone through your wiring harness and cleaned all the connections yet? Even if the actual connections are fine, you often will find other issues that need attention (burnt/shorted wires and such).

Also, just so I'll feel better, can you post a picture of your coils showing the plugs they are controlling? Also showing the wiring harness connections to the coils?
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:08 pm

Folsoml wrote:Two things can cause bad compression--rings and valves. If it is rings, adding oil temporarily seals the leaks and raised compression. If it a leaking valve, the oil does nothing. That being said, your compression numbers are not so bad as to cause a cylinder not to fire--nor are your compression numbers too high to cause anything. I would not worry about compression right now.

I've never heard of a coil that would fire one plug, but not the other.

What has lead you to believe your timing is off? The timing would have to be REALLY bad to make cylinders not fire at all. Usually it just makes them run rough.

juntjoo wrote: And I'm just not seeing the likely hood of it being electrical as no matter what I do 2&4 hot, 1&3 cool to warm.


Have you gone through your wiring harness and cleaned all the connections yet? Even if the actual connections are fine, you often will find other issues that need attention (burnt/shorted wires and such).

Also, just so I'll feel better, can you post a picture of your coils showing the plugs they are controlling? Also showing the wiring harness connections to the coils?


here's a vid on the timing. Still inconclusive.

https://youtu.be/gqEJFIarm_w

coils to plugs https://imgur.com/a/82x7h

more electrical coming...
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:25 pm

Folsoml wrote:Two things can cause bad compression--rings and valves. If it is rings, adding oil temporarily seals the leaks and raised compression. If it a leaking valve, the oil does nothing. That being said, your compression numbers are not so bad as to cause a cylinder not to fire--nor are your compression numbers too high to cause anything. I would not worry about compression right now.

I've never heard of a coil that would fire one plug, but not the other.

What has lead you to believe your timing is off? The timing would have to be REALLY bad to make cylinders not fire at all. Usually it just makes them run rough.

juntjoo wrote: And I'm just not seeing the likely hood of it being electrical as no matter what I do 2&4 hot, 1&3 cool to warm.


Have you gone through your wiring harness and cleaned all the connections yet? Even if the actual connections are fine, you often will find other issues that need attention (burnt/shorted wires and such).

Also, just so I'll feel better, can you post a picture of your coils showing the plugs they are controlling? Also showing the wiring harness connections to the coils?


What I still don't get concerning your statement about the plug caps per your friend, thx btw, is if a cap will work on 2 or 4 why wouldn't it work on 1 or 3?
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:50 pm

greasing connections https://imgur.com/a/sydhh

they all looked really anyway but this was good maintenance
Last edited by juntjoo on Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:39 pm

https://youtu.be/fmDOpBsPO38

quick 1 min vid. vac gauges all fluttering
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GeorgeSweety
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby GeorgeSweety » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:16 am

jj, you have compression, you have fuel getting through as indicated by wet plugs, so that just leaves spark. As Folsoml pointed out, there are no common components between 1-4 and 2-3 firing, you have swapped the plug caps with no change in results (please confirm), you have swapped the coils with no change in results (please confirm). I am presuming that all four spark plugs are new? The only reason that I can see it not starting (if you have done all of the above) is that the HT leads on 1 and 3 are either broke or they are not in the coils or plug caps correctly. If it is the 1-3 HT leads at fault then you would get the same result when you swapped the coils over. It's a shame you are on the other side of the World as I would really love to come and give you a hand with this :cry:

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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby Folsoml » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:34 am

juntjoo wrote:https://youtu.be/fmDOpBsPO38

quick 1 min vid. vac gauges all fluttering


Did your tune kit not come with dampers? If these are in the tube between the carbs and the gauges, you can make adjustments to minimize the flutter of the needles

Image

You mention the "idle screws." You say they don't do anything. To what screws are you referring, and what is the outcome you are seeking? Are you talking about the sync screws between the carbs bodies?

When you are checking the non-working cylinders, is it always at normal idle? Have you tried revving up to about 3000 Rpms and seeing if the pipes heat up then (remember the fan)?

Have you tried what George suggested above?

Lastly, you mention 'digging in there" as the camera pointed to the engine (the rapid movement was hard to watch). Don't do anything to the engine just yet. I don't think your problem is in there.
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GeorgeSweety
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby GeorgeSweety » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:44 am

Folsoml, I see what you are getting at with the sync screws, but I was under the impression that jj had bench synced the carbs. BTW, I've never got on with those dial gauges :x too damn jittery for my liking, even with the dampers!
Last edited by GeorgeSweety on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Folsoml
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby Folsoml » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:45 am

Image

What are these wires going to? Is it an inline fuse holder with a 30A fuse? If not, it should be. This is not the cause of your trouble (no matter what they go to), but it is something that will need tending eventually. It originally came with a 30A blade fuse, but these cannot usually be found at your local auto parts store, so when they blow, people will replace them with all kinds of things--quite often a simple piece of wire.

GeorgeSweety wrote:Folsoml, I see what you are getting at with the sync screws, but I was under the impression that jj had bench synced the carbs. BTW, I've never got on with those dial gauges :x too damn jittery for my liking, even with the dampers!


The dampers work like a charm for me. Dial them until the needles are just barely moving and adjust the carbs appropriately.
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GeorgeSweety
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby GeorgeSweety » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:18 am

I like my Morgan Carbtune, really simple to read :wink: each to his own I guess :)

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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby Folsoml » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:06 pm

I might like one of those even better. I have one exactly like his though and it works fine for me.
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby GeorgeSweety » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:33 pm

Folsoml wrote:I might like one of those even better. I have one exactly like his though and it works fine for me.


I've known plenty of people that use the dial gauges and swear by them, but they have always seemed to be really hard to get an exact reading on all four with only two eyes, if you get my meaning. You have to watch four dials fluctuate rather than watch four pieces of metal rod raise and lower against a benchmark, to me it just seems a lot more accurate. If I knew how to do video's on Youtube I would do a video comparison of dial gauges and a Carbtune set, but I would probably be really biased towards the Carbtune.

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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:17 am

sorry, have had my head in there deep. And that fuse holder I put in there in place of the burnt strip of metal that was in there. And yes I checked all plug wires and plugs by switching them on their own coils with no difference. I started it again after cleaning the spark plug running sand paper in the gaps. Then I discovered vac leaks at the carb boots, and spraying carb cleaner in them, 1&3, the cold ones, would cause the engine to rev and that would heat up their headers woo hoo, but that doesn't mean anything as 2&4 have leaks too and spraying on their boots stalls the engine. What does this tell you if anything new? I thought the normal response to spraying would be engine revving not stalling, which if true, ironic how the good cylnders stall while bad ones run better. I can take anyones suggestions but it helps to make some sense and I'm pretty lost here. What do ya think?
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